Podcast 99. Rumpelstiltskin’s Rules for Making Your Farthings Grow with Dr. Susan Laubach

Average Joe Finances:
0:00

Hey, how's it going everybody. Welcome back to the average show finances podcast. And today's guest is Dr. Susan Lobbuck so Dr. Lobbuck really excited to have you on the show today. You have an impressive background and I'm looking forward to talking about your book.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
0:15

Thank you. Thank you, Mike. I'm so glad to be

Average Joe Finances:
0:17

here. So I'd like to start this off with the same question I ask every guest that comes on the show and if you could share a little bit about yourself and share your story, what got you into to writing made you want to write about an investing?

Dr. Susan Laubach:
0:30

I was in the investment business for many years. I was a stockbroker. I was a manager of stockbrokers at trainer of stockbrokers. And I really loved the business. And I found that there were so many people, my clients included and the people that I were, I was teaching that, had certain fears about getting into the market and a lot of basic misunderstandings about, the market. And I thought that it would be an easy way for people to learn and remember, particularly remember, certain concepts. If I put. Into story form. And, so I, and I really enjoy doing that. And I have been writing for a long time. I had written several books prior to this one. I wrote, you've got children. I wrote children's books for my children. And when they grew out of the children's book phase, I started to write more for adults. And by the title of my book, you might think that it was only for children, but it is not. It is for, oh, anybody who's interested in getting into the investment business, the market.

Average Joe Finances:
1:38

Yeah. That's fantastic. And, you would think by hearing that name that you would think maybe it is a children's book. I gotta tell ya there's there is, there are plenty of children's books out there that I think. Would provide value to adults. Anyway, as a matter of fact, there's one book I have my daughter's reading right now. It's a children's books how to turn a hundred dollars into a million dollars and I read it with them and I'm like, this really has a good foundation to it, to help children understand compound interest too early. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's what I think is super amazing about that. So talking about your book, right? Rumpelstiltskin's rules for making your farthings grow. So now for those that don't know what farthings are, right. If you're into any type of fantasy or you see it, especially like in Robin hood and other, stories. You'll see. You'll hear farthings a lot often, and that's a form of currency, right? It's money. It's farthings. What I really like about that is, especially with Rumpelstiltskin, because when you think about Rumpelstiltskin in general, you think of, his whole thing was, spinning, spinning. Was it hay into gold, right? Yeah. So his whole thing was about, essentially in his own. Really sadistic way, with cursing people, was growing his wealth. So I thought it was, I thought the name was very clever, and he's a good guy. Yeah, absolutely. And then you got to figure out his name and go ahead and pronounce that, just looking at it. You're like, Ooh. And then, but if you know the story, the story. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. It's just, it's really exciting. It's definitely a different take, something that, you can read a book like that and get an understanding, but it's more, more of an allegory, right? Because it's or a metaphor, I dunno, I like to tie things into stuff that's relatable. And I feel something like that just makes it more relatable for other people that don't want to sit here and read the black and white on investing.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
3:23

Yeah. You're so right. You're so right. And each one of these rules I've embedded into well-known fairy tales. And so we have Rumpelstiltskin who in the book is running. His own investment banking firm. And he is telling these various stories, which in each one of them, there is a rule. What I would have to say is a concept, a guidance principle for people who are interested in getting into, or who are already in the investment market. So when I use, various, stories that are well known to us, but there may be some young people who really don't know these stories. They're easily found actually of the sleeping beauty and Goldie locks, the three bears and emperor's new clothes. I use that one as well. But I had a lot of fun writing them because I made them pretty silly.

Average Joe Finances:
4:21

You have to have fun doing something like that. Because if you're not having fun with it, then you know, how are your readers going to have fun with it? Yeah. That's yeah. But, it creates a form of excitement and, it makes people want to learn a little bit more about that. Because a lot of times, people don't really focus or at least it's not embedded in our education system to teach financial literacy, especially the young people. I didn't really understand my finances until I was in my early thirties, which is sad.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
4:52

When I was on the economic education committee for the securities industry association, we've learned, we knew at that point that, actually economic education. Had been required in schools for years, but it was never taught. It w it was rarely taught, I should say. And, our committee ran something called at the time, the stock market game. I do think the stock market game is still played across the nation, in high schools, but it is, matter of fact, I think it even goes down to, junior high schools, but, I don't believe the SIS. Sponsors at anymore. It's passed over to another, economic education group. But that was meant to teach kids how to invest, how to, read an annual report, how to, understand a company before they invest in it. And that was a very good thing, but not everybody played the stock market game coming out of high school, knowing anything. Companies and how to invest in them and how to value them. Most people like you. And I had to learn by doing

Average Joe Finances:
6:00

yeah. Learn by doing or by being fortunate enough to meet somebody else who's doing it already. That's pretty much how it started for me is, I had to go out and fortunately enough, I met other people that were investing and taking like their financial, literacy seriously and learning all of that. So it's one of the reasons why I started this podcast because, sure there's plenty of things out there. There's plenty of resources, but not a lot of people going out there and pushing it out and pushing it forward. So I

Dr. Susan Laubach:
6:28

Make it

Average Joe Finances:
6:28

understandable, make it accessible. Absolutely. Absolutely because, okay. I'll tell you right now. Like the first thing I thought when I first started looking at investing at all is this stuff's in a different language to me. I don't even know what I'm looking at. So being able to break it down to the basics is super important.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
6:45

I agree. And the problem that I found when I first came into this business was that as you say, there's another language and people are using terminology that I really had to have translated for me. So I was in the business. Can you imagine how clients felt. When a broker would call them up and babble all this stuff that had no meaning for these people at all. Fortunately I remember the learning process and how really hard it was for me. So I think that made me a good teacher because I know where the, I know where the questions are, I know where the peop where people are puzzled. And, I try to unpuzzle

Average Joe Finances:
7:29

them. Yeah. Yeah. And that's great. And, you're able to do that through, being an author right. Through providing, books that are gonna break it down a little bit easier, make it a little more digestible. So it's take it in small pieces instead of just the fire hose, drinking by the fire hose, which is what a lot of people do. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I want to talk a little bit more about what you're doing and how you got to where you are today, right? On your own journey, to financial independence and financial freedom, what did you do? What was it or the trigger that got you to start looking at investing and building assets to build your wealth?

Dr. Susan Laubach:
8:05

It was a matter of pure necessity for me. First of all, I came into the business from the theater. I had been a PR theater professional. Nobody I knew anything about investing. We were theater people, but if we know, and we didn't have any money anyway, so it didn't make any difference that we didn't know anything. But then. It became obvious to me that I was going, I have five children and that five children were going to go to college and, equity pay did not educate five kids. So I had to find a job that would enable me to put my kids through college. And. A friend of mine suggested that I go into this business and I said, yeah, I don't know the difference between a stock and a bond. That's all right. You'll learn. You they'll train you. They did. I did get training once I was hired, I was fortunate to get hired by a truly fine firm, which just between you and me, Mike. They had never, they've had one woman work for them in their 200 year history. And I was the second woman. So they hired me because I think they felt they had to. And then I was fortunate enough to have very good training. But a lot of that very good training came from my going out and learning on the job. And coming back and asking people, what is this, they're asking me about this. What does that mean? That's how I got into the business and I immediately loved it. I loved it because. When you're a stockbroker, you are always learning something new, things come along and you don't know the first thing about that particular technology. You got to learn about it because you got to tell someone else about it and why it would be good or bad to invest in it. I had a very, Excellent broker friend, a guy who'd been in the business for years and was really successful. And he said to me, if I can't explain these companies or these products to my kids, fifth grade class, then I don't understand it enough myself. And his point too, was that you don't invest in anything that you don't understand that I don't understand. That's a real risk. You don't want to take that risk with your clients.

Average Joe Finances:
10:25

Absolutely. And it's funny that you bring it back to that. I, if I can't explain this to a fifth grade class, then I really don't know anything about it because you hear that saying all the time too. Hey, talk to me like, like I'm a fifth grader. Explain it to me in a way that I'll understand. And, having a, a show like mine and what I like to do and similar to what you do with your books, right? It's almost like a translation. Like we're translating some of this language to make it more understandable, more digestible and easier for people to navigate through. Right.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
10:55

And into actually Mike to actually learn to love it because it's such a challenge, the stock, the wall street, I've heard a lot of people. Go like this about wall street these days. And I have to remind them that wall street is the engine that runs our country. That if we didn't have companies doing business nationally and internationally good companies whose products we use and we need, we wouldn't have a country as great as the one that we have. So it's important that people. Understand and learn to love, not to hate, learn to love wall street, but the bad guys are the ones that you see in. See the movies written and books written about the bad guys, because they're the ones who make a story exciting. I guess somebody said to me recently, Why don't we see any, stories and media movies, television, whatever about women stockbrokers and we're not gonna, we're not going to do bad things with your portfolio. We're very conservative folk. We will and want you to make money and we don't want you to be mad at us. So I think that's why we try and I'm sure, there are lots of men who do the same thing. I was in the business a long time and I one time and it wasn't in our company. One time I met a guy who was not, I would say totally honest, one time in all those years, most everybody I met in this business was really trying to do the best for our clients to make you rich. We'll be, successful. We'll be wealthy too, if you're a successful

Average Joe Finances:
12:44

and wealthy. Yeah. That's super important though, especially to point that out, that, it's the bad apples that create the bad rap for everybody. And there's not as many as you think there are. There are some right. But at the same time, if the stockbroker's doing their job is to make sure that their clients are making money. And if their clients are making money, they're making money. That's, it's win-win for everybody.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
13:05

And the other thing is you don't want disclosable clients. You don't want, you screw this guy over, he goes off and you have find a new one that is not a way to build a business at all. It, we became members of people's families. And we went to their babies christenings. We sadly went to their funerals, but the thing is we were part of their lives and just you wouldn't do a bad turn for your friends. You wouldn't do a bad turn for your customers either. You want to be well thought of.

Average Joe Finances:
13:38

Yeah, absolutely. It's about building that circle and building that network. It's refreshing to hear, especially somebody who's lived the stockbroker life, refer to their clients as family. And really getting close and getting close knit because a lot of times, people don't really talk about that too much. And one of the things I talk about a lot in this podcast is, community and networking. Yeah. And why that's so important, no matter what field you go into. I, I. Stray more towards real estate. I invest in the stock market a little bit. But I'm more of a real estate investor. But a big part of that is the network that I've built and the people that are around me that I surround myself with right now I don't think just because the realtor helped me close on a deal that, they were. Just get their commission and leave me. No, they're my realtor for the next deal too, so it's all about, building a community and building a community of people that you can trust. Cause that's like the key word. Yeah, absolutely. So talking about your book a little bit too, so it goes through different stories, right? Rumpelstiltskin is actually the one telling the story.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
14:36

Yes. He, in the very beginning, I set the stage, so to speak by showing how a company goes public, because I do think that's an important sort of base for people to have, to understand that not all companies, can you invest in, they have to be publicly traded. Or you can invest in them. So I tell the story of Goldilocks and the three bears and how she decided that their little house. Would be the beginning of a series of bed and breakfasts, and then as she's a venture capitalist. And so she brings them to the point where they go public and they need to have an investment banker to help them do that. So she takes them to her very dear friend, Rumpelstiltskin, who has a firm called Rumpelstiltskin, never rip off. And his never rip off investment banking firm takes them public. And then we call him rump from then on a rump takes in baby bear, who is now called Bob Bear because he's grown up and he's telling Bob Bear how to be, a trustworthy. Broker stockbroker and he tells it through these stories and these rules of these by the way, are things that I think people should know before they get to the stock market, or if they're in it. And they're not quite sure they're doing the right thing. They're just very basic concepts.

Average Joe Finances:
16:04

Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Now, what is, what would you say is probably like your favorite story out of all the stories that rumble the, or rump tells him this book? Yeah.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
16:14

I particularly liked the last one of which is when, tells his own personal story and how he learned that, you, aren't going to really spin straw into gold, that you have to manage your expectations. That was something I always. I always told my clients let's manage your expectations. You buy a growth stock so that the earnings will grow. You buy a dividend paying stock or real estate investment trust for you, Mike, because. Those dividends will grown up not the earnings. So if you want income, you buy that kind of a stock. If you want growth, you buy that kind of stock. So manage your expectations and know why you bought each piece of your portfolio. I like that one, a lot. And I also wait a minute. I also liked the one. This is real, I guess I like all of them, but the really important one too really important is the one, with the three pigs. And that is the one the story or the rule is always asked what can go wrong when you're approaching any investment in the stock market, you must ask yourself or your broker? You've told me what can go, right? You've told me that the earnings are going to grow wonderful. I'm glad to hear that. You've told me that the product is super-duper and gets lots of play in the news, but what can go wrong? Ooh, I know. No, I never thought about that. It's not that if the broker says, interest rates could go up and that might hurt this. We could have problems with China and worldwide, and that's what we're, that's what's happening right now. But once, you know what could go wrong, you make the decision to either buy it or not buy it depending upon how much that impacts your own company. In other words, you make the decision. I know what can go wrong. Okay. That's fine. But I still think this is a product that I'm going to use forever. So I know no matter what goes wrong, people will use this product forever. So it's that kind of, it's that kind of scenario that, I want people to think of when they think. What can go wrong?

Average Joe Finances:
18:31

That's a key part of understanding risk, right? And you have to understand, no matter what investment you go into, whether it's real estate or the stock market, it doesn't matter what you go into. Even if it's, crypto, which is the big craze right now, right? There's oh yeah. There's inherent risk there. No matter what you go. So that is a question that you should be asking yourself is what can go wrong. Absolutely. Now there, there was other things too, I had it like in the topics of discussion that I want to talk about with you too about like being a loaner versus an owner.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
19:02

Yes. Yes. That's that's again, part of understanding what your investment is. When you're investing in a common stock, you're an owner of the company. You are literally an owner, whether you own it through an ETF or through a mutual fund, you are an owner and you will participate in that company's good or bad fortune, but if you can't afford to take that kind of risk and you absolutely have to have the money to you at a certain time, then you want to loan the money out and get the interest paid to you while the loan is active and then get your money back at a particular time in the future. That's a loner, that's a bond. That's a fixed income security, which is a bond versus common stock.

Average Joe Finances:
19:52

Okay. So loaning versus owning, right? So loaning your money to the government or owning a share, a piece of a company.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
20:01

You can loan to a fine corporation. You can have a corporate bond. You can have a government agency bond, which pays more than the treasury. There are various levels of, quality, of course their treasury has the highest quality in the world because our treasuries are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government. The taxing power. That gives us a AAA rating. But there are very good corporate bonds that have a AA rating that have, very good, histories of paying their interest. Bonds are very interesting and I think that a good well-balanced portfolio has both.

Average Joe Finances:
20:38

Yeah, right on. And, and it's something that you had mentioned earlier, right? When it comes to any type of investing. Cause we kinda, we talked about the risk and good mentioned, managing your expectations. And it's super important to manage your expectations, whether your loaning your money in a bond or you're investing in a company and owning a piece of that company by buying stocks, buying common stocks. Th the whole point of it though, is. Really understanding what you're getting into, right? Educate yourself like we talked about earlier and then managing your expectations because, and understanding what you're getting into, understanding the risk involved, because there is always an inherent risk, no matter what you do, but you can mitigate it. And you mitigate that with your education, with doing research

Dr. Susan Laubach:
21:21

and you bear a risk. If you do nothing, because if you do nothing and you put your money into. I don't know a bank that pays no very little interest. You put it in your mattress for heaven's sakes. You are still losing money. You're losing purchasing power every year because of inflation. So you're taking it as much of a risk when you do nothing.

Average Joe Finances:
21:44

We close out what 2021 with a 7% is what's public. But we know it's actually a little higher than that, or could even be way higher than that. But, if you just have money sitting in an account, that's getting half a percent of interest, you just lost six and a half percent, your loan.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
21:59

Exactly. And the, while the stock market has been in a bull market for some time now, people will say, why didn't I get. Why didn't I get 26% or 35%, because I got 10%. That was very good. 10% because you probably had bonds in there and you probably have. Very high quality growth stocks and all that business of 26 and 30%. We're in a few very risky high-tech companies that are selling way over the price they should be selling.

Average Joe Finances:
22:34

Yeah, absolutely. And that's something you have to think of too, is that, don't compare what you're doing to other people because you put yourself in a, oh, if I would have done this or I would have done that and then you get the whole FOMO thing, the whole fear of missing out it's a nasty spot to be in because, Especially when you start comparing yourself, if you come up with your own plan that you're comfortable with look 10%, you beat inflation at that point.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
22:57

Absolutely. And, and after that, if you were talking about compound interest in the way it grows, that's fabulous. If you've been do that every year. The other thing to remember this FOMO business of fear of missing out, there's something to this because if people. For instance, I've had people say to me, oh, the stock market's so high. I don't want to get in now what you're not getting into the market, you're getting into any ETF or a company or a mutual fund. That's what you're not getting into the market. So let's look at the individual thing and let's remember this. One of my very best clients was called the father of momentum investing. Richard Driehaus died sadly about a year ago, but, Richard always said to me, volatility is our friend, meaning you've had your eye on a company that you know is way overpriced. It stock is way over priced. And then the market has one of those awful days or one of those awful weeks, like we've had this week. Your company is now at a price that's attractive volatility is your friend buy it. Don't be afraid. Buy it. If it goes down more, don't be afraid. Buy more because you have faith in that company because you took the time to understand what that company was about.

Average Joe Finances:
24:21

Yeah, you did the research on it and now you're buying it at a distance. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Oh, I love it. I love it. That's fantastic. And what a great way to just, have these stories, just, translate this a little bit easier, make it easier to digest for, somebody that would be listening to this show, like our everyday average Joe. So that's, this is probably one you want to pick up and check out if going into the stock markets, what you're interested in. All right, Dr. Laubach, I've got four questions I want to ask you. Okay. And this is something I just started recently doing on the show, but it's four questions I want to make sure I ask every guest that comes on now. And, it's, it's personal for me, like stuff that I want to know. Cause it helps me learn and grow as well. And I think it adds value, to my listeners. So if you're ready to go, I'll fire off these questions. Okay. Cool. All right. First question. It's a big. What's the biggest mistake you've ever made.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
25:09

The biggest mistake I ever made was not to listen to my own intuition and not to go with what I knew was the right thing to do. And that really had to do with buying something I didn't understand paying too much for it early in my career. And I lost a bundle. And trust yourself, have a little faith in yourself. You did the work you'll know that's either a good price or a bad price.

Average Joe Finances:
25:40

Yeah, I've done that too. I've sold something early that I should have held on to for three more months. And if I would have 25 X my money instead of just doubled it, but I wasn't happy with

Dr. Susan Laubach:
25:48

yeah, exactly. But be happy with doubling it. And don't collapse that wasn't a mistake of yours. That was actually a smart thing to do. You took, if you've got, if you've made a nice. You take your original investment off the table. You sell that much. You keep the rest in the biz and whatever you had it in and let it ride, but that your money out to go do something else with

Average Joe Finances:
26:12

it. Absolutely. Which I did. I did actually, I took it out and I invested in a, in some more real estate, actually. That was a good thing. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. Now, next question is what is something that you learned. That you wish you knew when you first got started?

Dr. Susan Laubach:
26:26

Oh, I love that question. I learned to take time listening to my clients, by the way back when I started, we called them customers. It became very important over the years to listen carefully to what they wanted, not what I thought they should have, but what they wanted. And once I learned that and realized these people were smart people, they knew what they wanted. And if I tried to sell him something that was wrong for them, it would end badly. I wish I had known those first two years. I was in the business just to have faith that if I listened to people, I would eventually get their business. It was important to take time, to build a relationship.

Average Joe Finances:
27:17

Absolutely love that. Love that. Okay. On this podcast, we have a lot of folks that are listening that are, on their journey to getting out of debt and then they want to start investing once they get themselves to a good spot. So do you have any tips or tricks that you would recommend to someone that is just getting started today?.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
27:36

Yes. First of all, you don't need to have a big, huge pot of money. You can start with 500 hundred bucks. Just the point is get started, but that's one of the very first stories I have get started and keep going. The other thing is I would look very seriously at ETFs exchange traded funds. Which as our baskets of securities, baskets of stocks in particular industries, areas all there, many different kinds of ETFs. That's a very good way to get started. Another way would be to find one company that makes a product that you use day in and day out, that if they rose the price on that, Because of inflation, you would still buy it and look at that company and consider buying its stock or buy what I call a back door company, which is the supplier to that company who brings in the stuff in the back door that company needs in order to make its product. That's sometimes the better investment because that hasn't gotten all the attention that the, original company has. Those. That would be my suggestion.

Average Joe Finances:
28:50

Yeah. That's fantastic. I heard somebody else mentioned too that, I forget who it was that says they do this to, they said that they will not buy a product. Unless they own stock in that company. So for instance, it's Hey, I want to go get myself an iPhone. I'm not going to get an iPhone if I don't own any apple stock. So first I'll take that money that I would've used to buy an iPhone and I'll go buy apple stock with it. Then when I get that money again, I will go buy the iPhone. So I just thought that was. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was super interesting because it's like, Hey, once you own a piece of that company, when you go buy that product, you're putting money back in your own pocket. It might be a fraction of a penny, but over time with compound interest, it, it's gonna keep going and going, but it helps that demand.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
29:30

With your children, your little girls, if you get them started on buying something, I've done this for my kids, buying something that they use all the time. I don't know, Nike shoes or, something that, that they use or wear all the time, a school supplies of some kind. Then they really get excited about. And they want to read the annual report and look at the pictures and, go to the store and see people, other people are buying it. They get the feeling a personal investment. Other than just their money.

Average Joe Finances:
30:03

Yeah. Yeah. And it grows that connection between what they're doing and essentially making their dollars, work, for them. That's like the key thing when I try to explain that to the, to my kids too, especially with the book that I had mentioned. It's about employing your dollars and making your dollars work for you instead of you working for them. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. All right. So final question. So this is going to be, so I'll just go with, besides your own, do you have a favorite business investing or real estate related book or podcast or both?

Dr. Susan Laubach:
30:33

Not specifically, I listened to so many different ones that I can't pull out. One that, what is, what's going on at the time. I've got the time to listen to it. As far as a book is concerned, oh boy I love John Bogle's book. John Bogle wrote a, oh, it was something like the little red book of investing. I can't, basic book. He's gone now, but what a super-duper guy, yeah. And he's the one who started the Vanguard funds. And the thing with John, he's such a hero in our business because he worked very hard to draw attention to the high fees that were being charged for mutual funds. And his whole thing was bringing decent investments to people with a low fee, as far as mutual funds were concerned. So he's a hero.

Average Joe Finances:
31:22

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Vanguard, ETFs. I love them. That's actually one of the things I like to invest in myself. Fantastic. Awesome. Thank you so much for that. I wrote that down. Like I said, these questions are stuff I like to ask because for me, it's more of a. I believe it adds value because it's like a personal question that I want to know about you and some of the mistakes that you've made, some of the things you've learned over time. And, so like I said, I wrote that down. I'm going to go look up the, I'm going to try to find that book. Stuff like that. It just adds value. It just helps us get smarter. It helps us get better at our craft. And I just absolutely love that. I think it's amazing. I do have one more question though, besides the four questions I asked you, and this is the most important, one of all, because the folks that are sitting here listening to our conversation are like, Hey, I really liked Dr. Laubach and what she's putting out here. This book sounds super interesting. I want to check it out. Where can I find it? So that's the next question for you? Where can people find more information about you? Do you have a website or social media? Where can we find your book.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
32:19

Yes. My book is on Amazon Kindle and I recorded it for, audible and, I have a website, susanlaubach.com. Not hard to remember. And I'd be just absolutely delighted if people would. Look up the book and look me up.

Average Joe Finances:
32:37

Yeah, fantastic. I'm going to make it easy for everybody that's listening. So even if you can't spell that or you're trying to figure it out while you're going, I'm going to have all of her links in the show notes. So all you have to do is copy and paste and you can go check out her book, check out her website. Learn more about Dr. Susan Laubach and what she's doing and the legacy that she has built. It's just absolutely phenomenal. This has been a very pleasant conversation. I genuinely enjoyed it and really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me on a Saturday. From the chilly, windy area of Manhattan right now.

Dr. Susan Laubach:
33:13

I really enjoyed our time together. Mike has been a lot of fun, I love to talk about the market and, it's so nice to hear your thoughts too. So thanks so much for having me on your show.

Average Joe Finances:
33:25

Ah, thank you so much in Aloha from Hawaii.